Goodyear Eagle F1 and cold temps

[Goof]

Professional Idiot here. I've been doing RWD on summers only for 17.5 years in the Boston area, 11 years with Porsches, though there's now also a 450lb-ft V8 on 255 rears knuckledragger's car in the garage as well.

I have done -5F on Pilot Sport 4Ses in a 981 Spyder. So at highway speeds, -20F wind chill. I've also done a 7 degree downhill grade on an actual mountain, at 30F air temps, with ice. Boy, was I awake for that mountain drive!

Glass transition temperature is the key number, and honestly, you want to probably be 15F above that temperature or more. I just had a friend actually do a LeMons race in the last week, RWD at sub-40F, in the rain, on 200 UTQGs or lower and although the team kept the car from hitting anything, he will say that was an experience.

For most folks, I'd say, "professional idiot only", with a lot of prior time on traction circles, wet skidpads, or concrete handling courses with sprinklers. With a 911 over something like a mid-engine Porsche, you also have more section width and ergo a bit less pressure being exerted on a given point of the contact patch. You can absolutely run into situations where you need to react immediately, and you need the experience so you won't over-correct.

I'll be doing this year's holiday drive[1] on a Spyder RS running on 295 rear Pilot Sport 4Ses, and even though it's almost exclusively highway and pre-Federal Interstate, I will be a very good boy as I know even in 50F air temps it has an extremely waggily tail within the first 25-30 minutes, even in a completely straight line.

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[1] Unless it's snowing or icy, then I'm renting something for the day.

[blueline]

Many can get away with driving in cold temps on certain performance summer tires such as the Pilot Sport 4S, although as the previous poster mentioned, it can be sketchy. A high level of caution and respect for what can happen is called for.

However, with extreme performance street tires such as MPSC2 (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 and Cup 2R) as well as the track-focused Pirellis, Goodyear F1 Supercar (and some F1 Asymmetricals), Hoosier TA Pro, etc. the danger is increased dramatically. Think black ice kinds of potential behavior. Also, the extreme compound tires can and will often will crack at the colder temps, voiding any tire warranty.

As an example regarding MPSC2 tires, Porsche put out a tech bulletin some years back warning about cold weather damage. I posted that earlier in this thread and am posting it again so that others don't think that driving MPSC2 tires in sub-freezing (below 40° per Michelin) is ok. Most (probably all) extreme performance, track-focused tires are not ok to drive in the cold. On the other hand, non all-season 4S type tires, while also potentially dangerous in the cold, do not fall in that 'definitely don't do it' category.

The Porsche TB just to be sure someone doesn't conflate tires such as MPSC2 with the somewhat more forgiving (in the cold) 4S variations.

Porsche Tech Bulletin - Tire Cold Temp Damage.pdf

(783.85 KiB) Downloaded 60 times

[Arne2]

Most (probably all) extreme performance, track-focused tires are not ok to drive in the cold. On the other hand, non all-season 4S type tires, while also potentially dangerous in the cold, do not fall in that 'definitely don't do it' category.

I'd qualify that statement to say that some non-all-season 4S type tires can be prone to serious tire damage in cold temps. The Yokohamas that my Cayman's PO ruined with a single drive in the cold were not some track-oriented variant. They were the factory equipped N0 marked Advan Sport V105. And yet that short drive with temps in the mid-20°F caused all 4 to develop tread cracks down to the cords. Maybe a Michelin PS4S wouldn't have done that. But I won't chance it. Today's top-line all season tires are good enough for most any driving other than track use. That's what I use now.

[blueline]

Most (probably all) extreme performance, track-focused tires are not ok to drive in the cold. On the other hand, non all-season 4S type tires, while also potentially dangerous in the cold, do not fall in that 'definitely don't do it' category.

I'd qualify that statement to say that some non-all-season 4S type tires can be prone to serious tire damage in cold temps. The Yokohamas that my Cayman's PO ruined with a single drive in the cold were not some track-oriented variant. They were the factory equipped N0 marked Advan Sport V105. And yet that short drive with temps in the mid-20°F caused all 4 to develop tread cracks down to the cords. Maybe a Michelin PS4S wouldn't have done that. But I won't chance it. Today's top-line all season tires are good enough for most any driving other than track use. That's what I use now.

Agree completely.

That's kind of what I intended to say in my post as a counter-point regarding the comment about driving in extreme cold Boston winters on summer tires, but in trying to be even-handed I didn't word it very well. I stopped short of the "just don't do it" wording.

Also, I was going to add the following I found yesterday directly from Goodyear regarding their summer tires (Eagle F1 Supersports, Asymnetricals, etc.) which also applies to other similar brands/models, including the Michelin summer-only 4S tires:

"Ultra-high-performance summer tires are not recommended for winter use, and tread or shoulder cracking on those tires resulting from winter use will not be covered under our warranty."

Tire manufacturers figure they have their legal behinds covered in that the tires are sold as summer-only, but they don't generally go out of their way to explicitly say "absolutely no cold weather driving" except for the somewhat mild warnings in warranty exceptions.

To your point and to be safe, my personal guidelines are that Eagle F1 type tires (aside from all-weather versions), MP4S summers, Pirelli performance summers and every other summer-only labeled tire out there fall into the "they may crack" category in cold temps as well as the "they won't have grip" in sub 45° temps . Incidents in cold weather conditions will teach that lesson as will experiences with cold tires on cold tracks.

Notes scattered around Tire Rack mention the same regarding max‑performance tires' summer behavior: "...not intended for winter use or near‑freezing temperatures."

For me, regarding performance tires, it's basically no tires other than all-season or winters if driving in temps below 40°. It should go without saying, but absolutely no snow or icy roads with performance summer tires. I'll add that heavy wet roads at any temp on any summer tire requires additional alertness as well as conservative driving.

[Pigs-In-Space]

This is a great string with a lot of useful information. Many thanks to those who’ve taken the time to post here.

I’m taking delivery of a 992.2 Targa 4S some time next month at Porsche of Nashville. The car will arrive equipped with OEM Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 (NA0’s) summer tires, which as we all know, aren’t recommended below 07C/45F for all the reasons discussed in the several posts above. I won’t be driving in snow/ice, however I’d like to be able to use my Targa throughout the year without worry about the tires. We periodically experience cold temperatures in Middle Tennessee December-March. Case in point: it was 12F/-11C here this morning with bright blue clear skies and bone-dry roads.

I installed Michelin’s Pilot Sport All Season 4 tires on my 718 Spyder when I took delivery and kept them on the car year-round. They were a great tire for my needs. Unfortunately Michelin doesn’t manufacture that tire for the rears on the 992.2 Targa 4S. Front’s yes…but rears, no. After some research it appears the Continental EXTREMECONTACT DWS 06 PLUS is a close second to the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4, and Continental manufactures this tire for the 992.2 Targa 4S. Has anybody had experience mounting these Continentals on a 911?? If so I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.js ... L&i3_Qty=2


Thank You,
Jim